North Carolinians who care about the balance of power in Washington and Raleigh now have a clearer picture of the state’s most consequential races.
BE AGAIN. >> IT’S TIME TO GO ON THE RECORD WITH WRAL NEWS. >> AFTER YET, ANOTHER LEGAL SAGA OVER REDISTRICTING. NORTH CAROLINA HAS NEW ELECTION MAPS AND SOME NEW RULES LIMITING PARTISAN REDISTRICTING. TONIGHT WE ASK WHAT NOW? GOOD EVENING. I’M DARRYL STATE GOVERNMENT REPORTER TRAVIS FAIN IN TONIGHT FOR LENA TILLETT. NEXT UP, OF COURSE, THE ELECTIONS, NORTH CAROLINA HOLDS PRIMARIES MAY 17TH WITH THESE NEW DISTRICT LINES FOR CONGRESSIONAL AND STATE LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS. WE EXPECT DEMOCRATS TO MAKE GAINS, BUT WE’RE NOT DONE YET WITH THE ISSUE OF PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING. THE PRACTICE OF POLITICIANS DRAWING THEIR OWN DISTRICTS AND SETTING UP ELECTIONS THAT ARE SOMETIMES SO LOPSIDED THAT THEY LOCK IN ONE PARTY FOR POWER THE STATE SUPREME COURT SAID TOO MUCH OF THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL IN NORTH CAROLINA, BUT IT IS A CLOSELY DIVIDED RULING LAST MONTH AND THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT ULTIMATELY MAY HAVE MORE TO SET. THAT’S WHERE WE START WITH JUST BRAVE. A NEW COVERS THE NATION’S HIGH COURT FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. JESS, NORTH CAROLINA REPUBLICANS ASKED THE HIGH COURT TO BLOCK OUR STATE SUPREME COURT’S RULING ON PARTS OF REDISTRICTING ARGUING THAT THE U.S. CONSTITUTION LEAVES THAT THE STATE LEGISLATURE’S ALONE TO DRAW ELECTION MAPS IN SHORT THAT OUR SUPREME COURT’S DECISION AGAINST PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING WAS ITSELF UNCONSTITUTIONAL. IT WAS A 6, 3, DECISION. THE SUPREME COURT DECLINED TO MOVE FORWARD, BUT IT SEEMED THE COURTS MINORITY WAS CHAMPING AT THE BIT TO GET THIS ISSUE. HOW LIKELY ARE WE TO SEE THIS ARGUMENT RETURN? I THINK WE’RE VERY LIKELY TO SEE IT RETURN. TRAVIS. AND BUT IT’S NOT THE FIRST TIME IT’S BEEN AT THE SUPREME COURT BACK IN 2015. >> THE ARIZONA STATE LEGISLATURE SUED TO INVALIDATE THE VOTER INITIATIVE THAT TRANSFERRED REDISTRICTING IN THAT STATE TO AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION. THE SUPREME COURT BY 5 TO 4 FOUND THAT VOTERS COULD DO THAT. THEY COULD DECIDE TO TAKE THAT POWER AWAY FROM THE LAWMAKERS IN PHOENIX AND GIVE IT TO THIS INDEPENDENT BODY. BUT THERE WERE $0.2 AND WE HAVE SEEN PARTICULARLY SINCE 2019 WHEN THE U.S. SUPREME COURT SAID THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION HAS NO REMEDY FOR PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING. WE’VE SEEN A LOT OF REALLY SOME STATE SUPREME COURT, INCLUDING NORTH CAROLINA, SAY THAT UNDER THE STATE CONSTITUTION, THERE ARE STRONGER PROTECTIONS FOR VOTERS STRONGER AND RESTRICTIONS ON COMMUNITY SELF-DEALING AND UNDER STATE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW LIMITS ON PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING AND THE ISSUE THAT THE THE REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS IN NORTH CAROLINA ARE BRINGING TO THE SUPREME COURT AND ALSO REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS IN WISCONSIN AND AND AND PENNSYLVANIA HAVE RAISED THE SAME ISSUE FOR THE SAME REASON. THEY’RE SAYING THAT ACTUALLY STATE SUPREME COURTS DO NOT HAVE THE POWER TO DO THAT. THEY’RE SAYING THAT THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT ONLY STATE LEGISLATURES CAN MAKE THIS DECISION AND THAT WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY RETURN TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT SOON. AND THAT’S CALLED THE INDEPENDENT LEGISLATURE DOCTRINE, RIGHT? BASED ON THE ELECTIONS CLAUSE IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. IN THAT I TAKE IT. THAT’S SOMETHING THAT’S GAINING STEAM OR AT LEAST REPUBLICANS HOPE IT WILL RIGHT. >> WELL, ABSOLUTELY. THEY HOPE IT WILL. AS LONG THEY CONTROL MORE LEGISLATURE’S THAN THEY DO. SUPREME YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO TO THIS IS A VERY CONTINGENTS TYPE OF ARGUMENT. IT’S HARD TO BELIEVE THEY BE MAKING THE SAME ARGUMENT IF THE ROLES WERE REVERSED. AND RIGHT NOW WE SAW DEMOCRATS OR AT LEAST IT MAINLY DEMOCRATS, BUT SOME REPUBLICANS TO WHO ARE PAID IN PRINCIPLE TO THE IDEA OF PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING RAYS, POLITICAL RHETORIC OR CHALLENGES UNDER THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. AFTER MANY YEARS OF LITIGATION FINALLY HIT A BRICK WALL BY 5 TO 4 VOTE IN 2019 THOSE UNIT REFORMERS, IF YOU WILL, TURN TO STATE CONSTITUTIONS TO LOOK FOR THE SEPARATE LANGUAGE IN SEPARATE PROVISIONS OF STATE CONSTITUTIONS WON SOME VICTORIES THERE REPUBLICANS WHERE THEY HOLD THE REINS ARE AGAINST THAT AND OTHER STATES MARYLAND, WHERE DEMOCRATS ARE THE MAJORITY TO BE VERY HARD TO IMAGINE THAT REPUBLICANS ARE BIG. SAME ARGUMENT. IT’S A ROOM TO A A PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING DECISION FROM THE STATE SUPREME COURT AT THE SUPREME COURT TO KIND OF REACTIVATE. THIS ISSUE JUST TAKES 4 JUSTICES RIGHT? >> TO TAKE UP THE ANY IDEA ON ON TIMING? I MEAN, WOULD WE SEE THIS MAY BE SOON AFTER THE 2022 ELECTIONS, YOU GUESS. >> I THINK WE WOULD SEE IT AFTER THE 2022 ELECTIONS BECAUSE WE HAD 3 JUSTICES SAY THEY WANTED BLOCKS IN NORTH CAROLINA SUPREME COURT DECISION RIGHT AWAY. YOU HAD A 4TH JUSTICE. BRETT KAVANAUGH SAY HE THERE IS A STRONG ARGUMENT HERE THAT NORTH CAROLINA REPUBLICANS ARE RAISING, BUT IT WAS TOO CLOSE TO THE 2022 ELECTION TO TAKE IT UP AND DISRUPT. YOU KNOW, THE POLITICKING GOING ON AHEAD OF THE PRIMARY AND THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS. BUT HE’S INTERESTED IN THE ISSUES. THAT’S 4 VOTES NOW, TYPICALLY FOR VOTES ON THE SUPREME COURT WILL NOT TAKE THE CASE IF THEY’RE SURE THEY’RE GOING TO LOSE BY THE OTHER 5 VOTES, THAT THERE MAY BE SOME JUSTICES WHO ARE OPEN TO THIS IDEA. BUT IT REALLY THE CHIEF JUSTICE AND JUSTICE AMY CONEY BARRETT AND WHO MIGHT BE A 5TH VOTE. AND WE’RE PRETTY SURE THE LIBERAL JUSTICES WILL NOT ALL 3 WERE THERE NOW AND VOTED IN THE MAJORITY IN 2015 TO SAY VOTERS COULD TO TRANSFER THE POWER TO COMMISSIONS. SO THEY PROBABLY ARE NOT OPEN TO THE CIRCUIT WILL GO BACK TO A CASE. YOU MENTIONED 2019 IS COMMON. COSBY RUCHO ANOTHER NORTH CAROLINA CASE. OF COURSE. >> THAT WENT ALL THE WAY THE SUPREME COURT COURT ESSENTIALLY SAID FEDERAL COURT STAYING OUT OF PARTISAN REDISTRICTING BUT THE ISSUE WASN’T CONDEMN TO ECHO INTO THE VOID AND THAT HE DID NOT CONCLUDE THAT THEY DID NOT SUPPORT PARTISAN DIRECTION, NECESSARILY. IS THERE ROOM BETWEEN THAT REACH A DECISION AND NOW WHAT REPUBLICANS ARE PUSHING FOR HERE WITH THIS DOCTOR AND WHERE ONLY LEGISLATURE’S CAN HANDLE REDISTRICTING. IS THERE ROOM FOR BOTH OF THOSE THINGS TO BE TRICKY THREAD THAT NEEDLE OR WOULD ONE CANCEL OUT THE OTHER? >> WELL, THERE ARE A FEW THINGS THAT WOULD NOT BE TOUGH. ONE, FOR EXAMPLE, IS THAT THE FEDERAL ELECTIONS CLAUSE, IT’S SUPERVISORY POWER OVER FEDERAL ELECTIONS IN THE STATES. SO IN THE EVENT YOU CONGRESSIONAL MAJORITY OF CONGRESSIONAL ACTION TO CREATE A NEW THEN THAT WOULD SUPERSEDE WHAT THE STATE LEGISLATURES CAN DO. AND IN FACT, THE HOUSE REPRESENTATIVES PASSED A BILL THAT WOULD HAVE ABOLISHED PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING NATIONWIDE TRANSFER ALL OF IT TO INDEPENDENT AND COMMISSIONS OR COMMITTEES IN EVERY STATE. BUT THAT DID NOT PROGRESS IN THAT IN THE LAST YEAR. SO CONGRESS COULD DO IT IF THERE IS A, YOU KNOW, NATIONAL REFLECTED THERE. SEPARATELY. COULD A LEGISLATURE CHOOSE TO GIVE THE POWER TO AN COMMISSIONER PANEL? AND THAT WOULD BE UNCLEAR IF THEY COULD DELEGATE THAT AUTHORITY. THAT MIGHT BE AN OPTION THAT STILL AVAILABLE. BUT IF THE ARGUMENT RAISED BY REPUBLICANS THAT ONLY STATE LEGISLATURES CAN DO THIS, THAT OUST STATE COURTS FROM AND THE ABILITY TO REVIEW WHAT THE ARE UP TO. >> WHEN ASKED ABOUT NORTH COUNTY PARTICULAR WERE JUST ALWAYS IN COURT ON ELECTION ISSUES, REDISTRICTING PARTICULAR SOMEONE WHO LOOKS AT THESE THINGS FROM A NATIONAL PERSPECTIVE. HOW ARE WE SEEING? ARE WE IN THE VANGUARD ON THESE ISSUES? ONE OF MANY PEOPLE TIRED OF US. >> AND WE LOVE YOU HERE BECAUSE YOU’RE ALWAYS GIVING US INTERESTING THINGS TO WRITE THE ELECTION CASES FROM NORTH CAROLINA HAVE BEEN VERY GOOD BECAUSE THEY COME FROM A STATE THAT IS CLOSELY DIVIDED POLITICALLY AND THEY ILLUSTRATE VERY WELL A LOT OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE ECHOING NATIONWIDE AND THEY PRESENT THE PRETTY WELL. I THINK THAT THE NORTH CAROLINA CASES HAVE BEEN HELPFUL IN CLARIFYING WHERE THE SUPREME COURT IS ON THIS ISSUE. AND YOU KNOW, PEOPLE NATIONWIDE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE RULES ARE UNDER THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION. WHAT HAPPENS UNDER THE STATE IS A DIFFERENT MATTER AND WHETHER STATES WILL HAVE THE FREEDOM TO REGULATE THESE ISSUES INDEPENDENTLY THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION IS THE NEXT QUESTION THAT WE’RE GOING TO SEE. >> ALL RIGHT. WE’RE GOING TAKE A BREAK THERE. WE COME BACK. WE’LL DROP BACK DOWN TO THE STATE LEVEL ON THIS. STAY WITH US. ALL RIGHT. WE MOVE NOW FROM THE U.S. SUPREME COURT TO THE NORTH CAROLINA SUPREME COURT, WHICH EARLIER THIS YEAR THROUGHOUT ELECTION MAPS DRAWN BY REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS AND TO SOME A PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING, A LEGAL IN NORTH CAROLINA HERE TO PROBE THE IMPACT OF THAT DECISION OR UNC. CHARLOTTE POLITICAL SCIENCE. ERIC EBRON PEPPER LEG AND ASHLEY HILDEBRAND OF POLITICS, PROFESSOR AT DUKE UNIVERSITY AS WELL AS FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, THE DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN DAVID PRICE AIR. HOW MUCH OF A SEA CHANGE FOR NORTH CAROLINA POLITICS WAS THE COURT’S DECISION IN THIS CASE? >> SIGNIFICANT IN TERMS OF THE CHANGE IN THE MAP FROM THE MAP PROPOSED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY’S MAPS WERE DECIDEDLY REPUBLICAN LEANING. WHAT A RESULT OF MORE IN IN CONGRESS, THEN A TYPICAL STATEWIDE VOTE WOULD PRODUCE AND THE IMPLEMENTED BY THE IS IS A MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE MAP. BOTH INDIVIDUAL ARE MORE COMPETITIVE AS WELL AS TO THE RESULT IS LIKELY TO WERE EVENLY SPLIT BETWEEN DEMOCRAT CRAFTS AND REPUBLICANS AND OUR REPRESENTATION IN CONGRESS. >> AND THIS IS ALL FOCUS MORE ATTENTION ON THE HIGH COURT. IT WAS ALREADY HIGH PROFILE PROFILE. WE ELECT OUR SUPREME COURT JUSTICES HERE. DEMOCRATS HOLD A 4, 3, MAJORITY, PERHAPS NOT COINCIDENTALLY THE DECISION IN THIS CASE FOR 3 ASHER. HOW HIGH ARE THE STAKES IN THE 2 SUPREME COURT ELECTIONS WE HAVE THIS YEAR. >> WELL, TOO, THEY’RE VERY HIGH TRAVIS AND YET THIS IS ALSO PART OF A LONG-TERM TREND NATIONALLY AND IN NORTH CAROLINA TOWARD JUDICIAL ELECTIONS THAT HAVE BECOME PARTISAN FIRST, IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY AS YOUR KNOWLEDGE. NORTH CAROLINA IS ACTUALLY ONE OF ONLY 8 STATES THAT HOLD CONTESTS ELECTIONS FOR THE STATE SUPREME COURT, BUT ALSO WASN’T ALWAYS THIS WAY UNTIL FAIRLY RECENTLY. THERE WERE BOTH NON-PARTISAN ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA FOR THE JUDICIARY AND PUBLICLY FINANCED ELECTIONS FOR THE JUDICIARY. SO IT’S REALLY ONLY WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS THAT WE’VE SEEN THE KIND OF BARE KNUCKLE PARTISAN ELECTIONS THAT WE’RE NOW ARE NOW SHAPING UP HERE AND WITH THE REDISTRICTING DECISION THAT YOU’VE BEEN DISCUSSION, IT REALLY FEELS LIKE ALL OF THESE FORCES ARE COMING TO A HEAD FOR 2022. >> THE NATIONAL STICKING WITH YOU. IF I MEAN, IS IT ALL ABOUT MONEY? HOW MUCH IMPACT ON HOW THIS ELECTION GOES WILL BE WHO SPENDS WHAT WHERE? >> WELL, HERE TO THIS IS PART OF THE BROADER TREND OVER THE A DECADE REALLY 2 DECADES. THE AMOUNT OF HELP INSIDE MONEY FLOWING INTO JUDICIAL ELECTIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY HAS INCREASED SOMETHING LIKE 5 FOLD. ACCORDING TO A RECENT REPORT FROM THE BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE IN THE LAST ELECTION CYCLE IN 2020, THERE WAS ALMOST 100 MILLION DOLLARS SPENT NATIONALLY ON JUDICIAL ELECTIONS. ONE ALL-TIME HIGH. AND EYE-POPPING, 10.5 MILLION OF THAT WAS SPENT IN NORTH CAROLINA, INCLUDING MORE THAN 6 MILLION JUST THIS. THE CHIEF JUSTICE RACE BETWEEN A WHOLE NEW BE IN CHERI BEASLEY. I DON’T THINK WE’LL SEE THAT LEVEL OF SPENDING THIS YEAR. BUT THE STAKES WILL CERTAINLY BE HIGH AND AGAIN HIGHER THAN THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN A FEW MONTHS AGO BECAUSE OF THIS REDISTRICTING MOVING. THOSE ARE ASTOUNDING NUMBERS YOU COULD MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT THE STAKES ARE. >> ARE HIGHER BECAUSE OF THIS REDISTRIBUTE, OBVIOUSLY ELECTIONS MATTER FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS. BUT A ERIC, IF REPUBLICANS RETAKE THE MAJORITY IN THE STATE SUPREME COURT, THE STATE LAWMAKERS REDRAW THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP COME BACK BEFORE THE COURT. THEY HAVE A SHOT AT UNDOING THIS COURT’S RULING ON PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING. >> SALUTE LEE. AND I THINK THAT’S A CRITICAL ASPECT OF IT. THIS PARTICULAR MAP THAT THE THE COURT WAS CLEAR THAT IT WAS A TEMPORARY AND IF THE LEGISLATURE BASICALLY SUBMITS THE SAME MAP THAT THEY DID PREVIOUSLY BUT HAS A DIFFERENT COURT AND MORE REPUBLICANS WORK TO EVALUATE THE LEGITIMACY OF THE MAP THAT I’M A REPUBLICAN MAJORITY FOR COULD VERY WELL FIND THAT THIS THIS MEETS THE STATE CONSTITUTION’S MANDATE TO FREE ELECTIONS WE’RE BACK TO SQUARE ONE ESSENTIALLY WITH WITH THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY’S MAPS. SO, YOU THE JUDICIAL ELECTIONS, YOU COULD MAKE A VERY A PROFOUND IMPACT ON THE ON THE CONGRESSIONAL AS WELL AS EVERY OTHER ISSUE THAT COMES BEFORE THE STATE COURT. THE REPUBLICAN DRAWN CONGRESSIONAL MAP, AT LEAST TO ONE POINT BECAUSE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL ITERATIONS. >> IT HAD 4 COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS, DISTRICTS THAT PASS RESULTS SUGGEST A REPUBLICAN OR A DEMOCRAT COULD WIN. NOW WITH THE COURT APPROVED MAP, WE’VE GOT ONE, THE 13TH WAKE AND JOHNSTON COUNTIES, ASHER, I KNOW THE NEW MAP ORDERED BY THE COURT WILL PROBABLY ELECT MORE DEMOCRATS, BUT ARE MORE COMPETITIVE. RACE IS A GOOD THING. HASN’T THAT BEEN A CENTRAL RALLYING CRY IN THE PUSH BACK AGAINST PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING? >> IT HAS. AND THE ANSWER IS YES, MORE COMPETITIVE RACES ARE GOOD THING AND A MAP THAT FAIRLY REFLECTS THE PARTISAN COMPOSITION OF THE STATE IS A GOOD THING. SOMETIMES THOSE 2 THINGS ARE ALIGNED AND SOMETIMES THEY’RE NOT. IN THE CASE OF THE REPUBLICAN MATTHEW MENTIONED, THEY DID HAVE 4 COMPETITIVE SEATS, BUT THEY WERE PROBABLY HAVE ELECTED A CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION THAT HAD 10 REPUBLICANS AND ONLY 4 DEMOCRATS IN THIS YEAR’S ELECTION. AND THE COURT FOUND THAT THAT DID NOT MEET THE TEST OF FAIRNESS. I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE COURT IMPOSE MAP WHILE IT’S PROBABLY THE FAIREST MAP IN THE HISTORY OF THE STATE IN TERMS OF PARTISAN FAIRNESS, IT DID NOT TAKE MUCH OF THAT WHILE ALSO PRESERVING MORE COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS AND ACTUALLY VOTE THEM OUT FOR FOR NOT DOING THAT. I THINK IT COULD HAVE HAD 2, MAYBE 3 COMPETITIVE SEATS AND NOT JUST THAT ONE. AND SO WE KIND OF SEE HOW YOU KNOW, YOU. IT’S NEVER SO SIMPLE. THEY D THERE. THERE’S A LOT OF NEW HEIGHTS HERE. >> WE’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE CONGRESSIONAL MAPS, BUT I ALSO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE NEW STATE HOUSE AND SENATE MAPS, TOO. A WHOLE BUNCH OF AN OPPOSE SEATS NOW IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY COMMENTS WERE GOING TO WALK TO REELECTION. ERIC, I’LL ASK YOU, IS THAT A GOOD STRATEGY TO SAVE MONEY ON RACES THAT YOU KNOW, YOU CAN’T WIN SPENT ON RACE. YOU THINK YOU CAN’T WIN OR IS IT? IT IS A SHAME FOR DEMOCRACY THAT WE DON’T HAVE MORE COMPETITIVE RACES ACROSS THE BOARD. >> AND LIKE YOU GO FOR THE POLITICAL PARTIES AND THAT THEY DON’T HAVE TO PUT ANY EFFORT INTO PARTICULAR AREAS. BUT IT’S NOT GOOD FOR VOTERS. AND I THINK THE ADDITIONAL CHALLENGE FOR VOTERS IS IF YOU DON’T HAVE A COMPETITIVE ELECTION IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, THAT MEANS THE REAL ACTION IS IN THE PRIMARY ELECTION AND THAT PUBLIC OFFICE HOLDERS AN INCENTIVE TO TAKE MORE EXTREME POSITIONS TO APPEAL TO THOSE. I’M VERY CONSERVATIVE OR VERY PRIMARY ELECTORATES AND THAT MAKES GOVERNING MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF EXTREMISTS AND NOBODY HAS AN INCENTIVE TO COMPROMISE AND THE KIND OF FIGURE OUT WHAT WHAT THE AVERAGE CONSTITUENT ONCE ACROSS THE STATE AND THAT JUST FEEDS INTO THIS THE CYCLE THAT WE’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT OF LINES BEING DRAWN JUST TO FAVOR ONE PARTY OR THE OTHER, WHICH COULD SEE THESE NONCOMPETITIVE RACES YOU KNOW, VICTORY, ALTHOUGH GOVERNOR. ALL RIGHT, STAY WITH YOU. QUICKLY, ERIC, GOING BACK TO THE COURT DECISION. WE HAD A PRETTY KEY RULING HERE ON POLITICS. >> REALLY BROKE ON PARTY LINES. MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ABOUT TO BE SPENT ON STATE SUPREME COURT RACE IS WHAT IS THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION HERE OF OUR COURTS? ARE THEY BECOMING MORE PARTISAN? IS THAT THE PERCEPTION? AND IS IT JUST A PERCEPTION? >> YEAH. IF YOU LOOK STATES THAT ELECTIONS FOR THEY TYPICALLY VIEW JUDGES AS JUST POLITICIANS IN AND I THINK IDEALLY, WE’D LIKE TO SEE PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THE JUDGES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE RULING THE LETTER OF THE LAW AND THE TREATING EVERYONE FAIRLY REGARDLESS OF THEIR PARSON WE WE DON’T AND SHOULDN’T HAVE ONE SET OF LAWS FOR REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS. YEAH. AND INCREASINGLY WHEN WE SEE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS REALLY AS DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS FOR THE COURT, YOU HAVE A REPUBLICAN VERSION OF THE LAW AND THE DEMOCRATIC VERSION OF ALL AND WHO WINS GETS TO DETERMINE WHICH VERSION OF THE LAWS IS IMPOSED. AND AND THE RULE OF LAW IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN THE RULE OF LAW FOR EVERYBODY NOT BASED ON THE THE VICES AND PARTISANSHIP OF THE JUDGE. ALL RIGHT. WE’LL PAUSE FOR NOW. >> AND COME BACK IN THE MIDDLE. HAS SOME OF THE SAME THINGS OUT CUP COLLEAGUES HERE FROM WRAL. ALL RIGHT. JOINING ME NOW, MY FELLOW IN SEE CAPITOL REPORTERS, PAUL SPAY AND BRIAN ANDERSON, TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE SAGA THAT HAS BEEN THE FIGHT OVER VOTING MAPS IN NORTH CAROLINA. AND WHAT COMES NEXT. LET’S START WITH THESE ELECTIONS. GENTLEMAN. WHAT’S THE MOST INTERESTING RACE YOU SEE HERE THAT SET UP, BY THE WAY, THE MAPS CHANGE. PAUL, YOU START. >> WELL, FIRST, OBVIOUSLY THE 13TH DISTRICT IS THE MOST COMPETITIVE. THAT’S THE ONE THAT’S IN SOUTHERN WAKE. AND SO THE HARNETT COUNTY AND IT HAS ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, YOU RENEE ELLMERS INFO HINES, IF KELLY DON’T REMAIN ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, YOU HAVE, WHY WOULD MICHAEL AND SAM BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT THE MOST INTERESTING ONE IS TO MATE WHO MADE THE MOST INTERESTING GK BUTTERFIELD DISTRICT. THAT’S DISTRICT ONE AND IT’S IT’S A DEMOCRATIC DISTRICT HISTORICALLY. BUT NOW THANKS TO REDISTRICTING, LESS DEMOCRATIC IT STILL DOES LEAN DEMOCRAT, NOT QUITE AS MUCH AS IT USED TO AND THE BIG IMPORTANT POINT HERE IS IN A WAVE ELECTION, DEMOCRATS COULD LOSE THIS SEAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN WHAT DECADES OF WHAT IT’S ALL BE WATCHING THAT RACE AND THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY DON STATES 100 ON DAVIS AND HIS FORMER COLLEAGUE SMITH. WE’LL ALSO FIND OUT WHO THAT CATS VOTING FOR. >> BRIAN AND BRIAN, BY THE WAY, HE’S OUR NEWEST REPORTER. YOU’RE WELCOME, BRIAN. WHAT RACE THE MOST HERE? >> O WELL FOR ME, I I’M INTERESTED IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY IN THE 11TH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, WHICH IS THE STATE’S WESTERN MOST DISTRICT. AND THAT ONE IS PARTICULARLY INTERESTING BECAUSE IT HAS INCUMBENT U.S. REP MADISON CAWTHORN AND KYLE HORAN HAS MADE HEADLINES. HE’S A CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE IN NORTH CAROLINA POLITICS AND HE’S GOT 7 OPPONENTS RIGHT NOW. SO THAT CERTAINLY RAISED TO WATCH. IF YOU’RE LOOKING FOR THE CLOSEST IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, I THINK LIKE ANY SAID, YOU GOT TO LOOK TO THE 13TH DISTRICT BUT THERE’S PLENTY OF REASONS TO TRACK PLENTY OF RACES TO FOLLOW. BUT THE ONE I’M WATCHING IS THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY IN THE 11TH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT. YEAH. AND WE TALKED ALSO LET’S GET BACK TO THE MAPS A LITTLE BIT. WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW >> WE’RE NOT REALLY DONE HERE YET. THE FIGHT. IS IT REALLY OVER, BRIAN? HOW LIKELY YOU THINK THE LEGISLATURE IS TO DRAW MAPS AGAIN AFTER THESE 2022 ELECTIONS. WELL, THERE’S 7 SEATS THAT ARE LIKELY TO GO TO 6 LIKELY TO GO TO DEMOCRATS AND ONE. THAT’S A TOSS UP. >> DO REPUBLICANS LIKE A 7, 6, MAP. THAT COULD BE 7, 7, I THINK THE ANSWER FOR THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT. I WOULDN’T BE SURPRISED TO SEE US BACK HERE AGAIN FOR THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP FOR SURE. AND REMEMBER, THIS IS AN INTERIM 2022 MAP THAT’S TO BE USED FOR THIS YEAR. ONLY CAN THEY DRAW LEGISLATIVE LINES AGAIN, THAT SEEMS THAT THE STATE CONSTITUTION SAYS NO, BUT MAYBE IF YOU GET A CONSERVATIVE SUPREME COURT, THAT’S POSSIBLE. BUT CERTAINLY EVERYONE EXPECTS TO BE BACK AT THE DRAWING BOARD FOR THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP NEXT YEAR. RAND PAUL, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS I FIND REALLY INTERESTING ABOUT REDISTRICTING IS THAT IT’S NOT AN ISSUE THAT SEEMS TO MOVE THE PUBLIC AS MUCH COVERAGE AS WE GET IT. BUT POLITICIANS, PEOPLE FOLLOW THESE THINGS CLOSELY. CONSULTANTS. >> THEIR PASSION, PERHAPS BECAUSE IT AFFECTS THEIR LIVELIHOOD. AND SO THE COURT’S DECISION YOU’RE INSPIRED A LOT OF ANGER AMONG REPUBLICANS WITH THESE MAPS. AND WHAT I’M WONDERING IS, IS THAT THE KIND OF ANGER THAT BURNS HOT BURNS OFF OR YOU THINK IT’S GOING TO LINGER? >> I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT. VOTERS LIKE YOU SAID, DON’T TO CARRY THIS TISSUE TO THE POLLS WITH THEM DOWN. KEEP IN MIND THAT ONE PARTY WAS IN CHARGE WHEN THE MAPS TO CHANGE. HOWEVER, YOU KNOW, AS MUCH AS I DID THE DAWN OF THE LEGISLATURE. THANKS. LINGER FOR A LONG TIME. AND SO WHEN WE SAW REPUBLICANS TAKE CONTROL OF THE LEGISLATURE AND ABOUT A DECADE AGO, ALMOST AND IN 2013, THEY STARTED PASSING THESE BILLS. AND, YOU KNOW, EVEN IN THE PROCESS OF PASSING THE BILLS, YOU KNOW, TWEETING A PROCEDURAL RULE HERE AND THERE, YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD BE CALLED OUT FOR THE FIRST THING. THEY WOULD SAY IT’S DEMOCRATS TENDED TO. HERE’S AN EXAMPLE AND TO ME THAT GOES TO SHOW THAT THEY TURN THINGS LIKE THIS WITH THEM PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE. THEY SAY PRECEDENT SET MOST WERE BACK LONG AGO. AND WE LOOK AT THIS NEW MAP THAT WAS DRAWN BY CONSULTANTS AND NOT THE LEGISLATURE. I DO THINK THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE DOWN ON JOHN STREET WILL REMEMBER THAT. AND WHAT WILL MOST DEFINITELY WILL TAKE TAKE THE CONGRESSIONAL BACK UP AGAIN NEXT YEAR. SO IT DOESN’T BURN HOT VOTERS KNOW WITH PEOPLE WHO MAKE THESE MAPS. YES, THESE DECISIONS LATER. YEAH, I THINK THAT’S PROBABLY RIGHT. AND BRIAN, THAT’S GOING TO FEED INTO WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT WHERE WE’RE PROBABLY GOING TO BE BACK ON THIS AGAIN. >> I THINK PROBABLY JUST ON THE CONGRESSIONAL MAPS. BUT YOU TALK TO SOME PEOPLE SAY THE STATE LEGISLATIVE MAPS COULD BE BACK UP AS WELL. RIGHT? >> RIGHT. WELL, HERE’S THE PROBLEM. YOU HAVE STATE LAW AND STATE CONSTITUTION THAT CAN FLEX WHO RESOLVES THIS ISSUE. THE STATE SUPREME COURT. WHAT’S THE MAKEUP OF THE STATE SUPREME COURT GOING TO BE RIGHT NOW? IT’S 43 IN FAVOR OF DEMOCRATS, BUT THERE’S 2 SEATS THAT DEMOCRATS CURRENTLY HOLD. THAT WILL BE UP FOR GRABS. SO IF REPUBLICANS CAN RETAIN CONTROL OF THE STATE SUPREME COURT, REPUBLICANS THINK, HEY, MAYBE WE HAVE A SHOT OF REDRAWING THESE LEGISLATIVE LINES. NOW IT’S WORTH POINTING OUT THAT VOTING GROUPS HAVE COMPLAINED THAT THE LEGISLATIVE LINES AREN’T SUFFICIENTLY FAIR. THEY TRIED TO GET THEM TOSSED BUT ULTIMATELY A TRIAL COURT SAID THE LEGISLATIVE MAP IS FINE. THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP, WE’RE GOING TO GO WITH THE PLAN OF OUR OWN. >> AND THAT’S ABOUT ALL THE TIME WE HAVE HERE. IT SURE DOES FLY WHEN WE’RE TALKING POLITICS. GENTLEMEN, THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY. WE’LL COME BACK. ONE MORE TIME WILL TELL YOU IN A MINUTE TO CONTACT THE SHOT. YOU’VE GOT SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT TONIGHT’S DISCUSSION. GET INVOLVED. TWITTER DOT COM SLASH WRAL TAKE PART IN THE DISCUSSIONS THERE. E-MAIL US YOUR QUESTIONS. COMMENTS, CRITICISMS THAT’S ON THE RECORD AT WRAL DOT COM CAN ALWAYS WRITE A LETTER SENT ON THE RECORD P O BOX 12,000 RALEIGH, 2, 7, 6, 0, 5, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT. WE DO
